How do you talk to kids about violence?
In this inaugural episode of OnTopic with Empathia, Rick Hoaglund introduces himself and his guest, Crisis Management expert Bob VandePol, to talk about one of the most difficult challenges of parenting – having honest conversations with your kids about just how dangerous the world around them can really be – and how to lay the groundwork, identify the signs, and combat the problem with bullying – both at school and online – before it begins to spiral out of control.
Whether it is delivering a high-value employee assistance program, student support, or responding to a crisis in your organization or community, OnTopic with Empathia brings competence, compassion and commitment to those who need it most.
Listen to “Episode 1: Talking to Children about Violence with Bob VandePol” on Spreaker.
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Click here for the full episode transcription
00;00;09;02 – 00;00;42;01
Rick Hoaglund
Welcome to OnTopic with Empathia. I’m your host, Rick Hoaglund. Today on the show, we’re talking about speaking to kids about violence. Our guest today is Bob Vandepol. Bob has over 36 years of experience in the crisis management industry. He’s active as a keynote speaker and he’s been published in journals on crisis response to tragedy. Bob is going to speak with us today about situations in which children are directly impacted by a violent incident and supporting children through these difficult events. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining us.
00;00;42;01 – 00;00;44;01
Bob Vandepol
Rick! Honored. Glad to be here.
00;00;44;01 – 00;01;39;05
Rick Hoaglund
Today, we’re going to be talking about how to discuss violence with children that are directly impacted. At least one in seven children have experienced child abuse and/or neglect in the past year. This is according to the Department of Health and Human Services. And each day, more than a thousand youth are treated in emergency departments for physical assault related injuries. In 2019, about one in five high school students reported they’d been bullied. And that’s what happened on school property. 8% of all high school students have been in a physical fight on school property one or more times during the last 12 months. Each day, 14 youth die from homicide and more than 1300 are treated in emergency departments for violence related injuries. All of this, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. So give us some ideas of what how are children directly impacted by violence?
00;01;39;05 – 00;03;00;23
Bob Vandepol
Oh, way, way, way too many ways, Rick. I wish I wish it never happened. Don’t you wish you wish you never had to have this conversation and that our leadership, our listenership, would be zero. Unfortunately, there are way too many ways. Sometimes the violence happens within their family, child abuse. Sometimes it’s witnessing domestic violence, sometimes it’s siblings. It can happen in their neighborhood. It happens in their community, it happens in their schools. Violence is an equal opportunity event. It can happen anywhere, unfortunately. And how does it affect anyone’s mental health? I mean, so you experience violence and you’ll have some people say, oh, you just brush it off and you just move on. But that’s not the case, right? No, no, it’s not at all. Suck it up, buttercup. Rub some dirt on it. Doesn’t work. That is not sustainable. Sometimes we need to do that for a period of time to get through the situation when we’re on a mission. But that’s not sustainable. And especially not for children. And there’s a lot of research about what’s called A.C.E.’s, which are adverse childhood experiences. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of research that indicates that certain numbers of A.C.E.’s are very predictive for not only behavioral health, mental health, but also for physical health. And the likelihood of a lot of negative health statistics.
00;03;00;23 – 00;03;11;19
Rick Hoaglund
So does that also carry on into adulthood then? So you have trauma, you have a violent experience as a child. Does that carry on into adulthood as well? Can you have it forever?
00;03;11;19 – 00;03;49;22
Bob Vandepol
Yes, it can. And I’m not going to be doomsday because there are ways to mitigate and to reverse it also, fortunately. But oh, yes, experiencing these type of events changes the way that your brain circuits. It changes in the way that you become vigilant and startled and reactive to potential threats. There are also studies and I can’t go too far into detail on this, but even in terms of other parts of your body where this kind of trauma can impact how the cells work together. So sometimes the issues are in your tissues. Yes. And it can impact you lifelong.
00;03;49;22 – 00;04;01;13
Rick Hoaglund
So when a parent suspects that this is going on, what should they watch out for? I mean, eventually they’re going to have to probably have a talk. But even prior to that, what are they looking for? What are the signs?
00;04;01;13 – 00;05;08;14
Bob Vandepol
Well, I think one thing to do as a parent and you don’t want to over caution your children. I think you could you could create an anxiety disorder by being the parent twice as careful. Careful, careful. Because that sends the message that the world is insurmountably dangerous. But you want to deal with reality. And so I think it’s important to have a platform, have a foundation of I’m here to help keep you safe. Bad things can happen. We all like to operate with this bubble of denial that it can’t happen to me. But it can. It does happen. I’m here to help you to be safe. I’m here to teach you to be safe. I’m here to pull other resources in as well. And we do this all the time. I mean, we do it with little kids. Brush with crest. Use training wheels. Look both ways. Stop, drop and roll. We do those kind of things all throughout their life. This is another thing that kids need to learn. How do I not get into a van with a stranger except candy from a stranger? How do I handle it if I get bullied at school? What do I do if somebody punches me?
00;05;08;20 – 00;05;30;25
Rick Hoaglund
Actually, that was exactly where I was going. What if you’re a caregiver? You’re not the parent. But you might be a teacher. You might be someone that’s watching the kids or even a babysitter. Is this appropriate for people in that position to be talking to children or talking to the parents? Or what should they do if they suspect that the child may have some trauma from violence?
00;05;30;29 – 00;07;26;23
Bob Vandepol
I think yes and yes and yes. Ideally, it happens with parents and teachers and coaches and faith leaders and boy and Girl Scouts and everybody working together in a coordinated fashion. And hopefully there’s some unity amongst the caring adults when this happens. Ideally, it starts with parents. Ideally, it starts with parents, but sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes they’re the source of the violence. Sometimes they’re just not very good at it or they don’t get it. But I think it’s absolutely appropriate for any of those that you listed. Help kids be safer. What greater gift can you give to a kid? So should this be proactive or reactive or both? Both. Both. Proactive is always better. It’s always better. And so often times people will say, How do I have this talk? My kid and I can’t communicate. That’s a bad time to start. Start anyway. But ideally, you already have a trusting relationship that has good conversation in it so that when this does happen, it’s not shocking or even more awkward. If you build a foundation of good communication with your kid, the tough conversations are easier and more effective. So be proactive. I think it’s good, even just talk with your kids! You know, things happen all the time that we become aware of. They’re aware of somebody else perhaps being victimized by violence or they witnessed something at school. That’s a great time to talk with your kid about what would you do if it was you? What are some ways that you can stay safe from that type of situation? Have those conversations ahead of time. It’s always best to have it when the kid isn’t panicked. They’re going to hear better. They’re going to retain information better. It’s going to be less threatening if you have it. This is a good conversation to have on a good safe day.
00;07;26;23 – 00;07;49;21
Rick Hoaglund
So tell me about a good, safe day. You’re a parent. You’ve got a child that maybe because of their race, because of their religion, because of their socioeconomic class, they might be more vulnerable, right? Is it best with those children to go ahead and have I’m going to call them tough conversations. But like you said, they don’t necessarily have to be tough conversations. But is it okay for you to go ahead and start those relatively soon?
00;07;50;08 – 00;09;04;22
Bob Vandepol
Yes. Age appropriately. Again, you talk to a teenager differently than a two year old. So it needs to be in a vocabulary that they understand, and when you go to the amusement park, if you’re three, you ride the teacups. If you’re 13, you ride the roller coaster. Right? And so the conversation needs to be gauged and titrated in that way, too. But I think so. I think it’s really important to identify what are the potential threats so that the child isn’t blindsided by them. And so if somebody may be a target uniquely in an increased way because of some demographic without feeding further fuel to any hate or prejudice, I think it’s helpful to say some people, not people that we want to be friends with necessarily today, but some people will be more of a threat to you because of this. And I think that’s a helpful thing to let people know. And I think you want to encourage kids to start out wanting to trust, but to keep their eyes open that this could occur and not be shocked by it.
00;09;04;22 – 00;09;20;14
Rick Hoaglund
Is there a difference in the way that you discuss this with a child that is in a situation where violence is part of everyday life and versus the child that violence is an exception? I mean, huge exception. Is there a difference in the way that you talk to them about that?
00;09;20;14 – 00;11;11;00
Bob Vandepol
Absolutely. You need to support them both, and the issues are going to be a little different for both. I mean, if I the child are in a neighborhood or in a system or a culture where violence is accepted, it’s like a workplace, the same as it is a community is the same as it is in a school. If that’s accepted, it makes a lot of sense for me to be very vigilant all the time. And there are certain things I can say, certain things I can’t say that I may be able to pull off in another system. Little bit of rabbit trail here, but I remember having a conversation with my son when he was in high school and he was in a large high school, but it was a suburban, I thought a very safe place for him to be and he was telling me about some verbal exchanges that had happened in the hallway. And I said, Wow, when I was in high school, that would have been a fistfight. And he looked at me and went, No, there are no fistfights in my high school, because if you start a fistfight, you’re afraid somebody comes back tomorrow with a gun. So in many ways, there were fewer fistfights than in mine because of the bigger threat. So in some situations, it makes a lot of sense to really teach kids to be that hyper vigilant. And that’s a different type of trauma from being vigilant all the time in settings that are supposed to be safe. And this is often the case when there’s violence in a family and sometimes when there’s sexual violence within a family, the shock is even greater because I’m supposed to be safe there. And if I can’t be safe there, then I can’t be safe anywhere. If you’re on the football team, it’s normal to get tackled. But if it happened in a chess match, that would really be shocking.
00;11;11;00 – 00;11;37;24
Rick Hoaglund
Schools have, of course, their targets for potentially for active shooters, let’s just bring it up. I mean, it’s rare. It’s still very, very rare, but it’s really on an instructor’s mind, a teacher’s mind and administrators mind. So they practice and they practice. What do you tell your kids about that? I mean, they’re told what to do. They practice what to do. They have drills. They have talks about this. All the time. What do you do? I mean, how do you handle that as a parent?
00;11;37;24 – 00;12;42;26
Bob Vandepol
I think they’re handling it correctly. You know, I grew up in the Midwest and we had tornado drills and our schools had fire drills. Now, never in my academic career did we have a fire, and I don’t think we ever had a tornado while I was at school. But it wasn’t terribly alarming. It kind of got to be okay. This is what we do and we have to do it and it keeps us safer. And, you know, when you’re a kid, you look to the adults for the source of safety. And if the adults say that it’s a good idea or we have to do it, okay, I can put up with it. So I think doing the same thing with active shooter drills, doing it is wise. How you do it is the difference. If you do it in a hysterical, fear driven, panic driven, this is going to happen any moment and I’m terrified ways as an adult. Yes, that becomes contagious. If you do it in a way, this is very unlikely to happen. But we want you to be as safe as possible just in case it did. We’re taking charge of your safety, and I think it helps to mitigate anxiety and fear.
00;12;42;26 – 00;13;10;09
Rick Hoaglund
So statistics show that about one in five children will have some form of bullying. And this goes all the way from a preschool level, all the way up through probably even into college, because there’s a lot of different kinds of bullying that goes on. What can be done about that? Should we be talking to our kids about bullying or and this is a second question. I’ll ask it again if we need to. But what if we find out our child was the one doing the bullying and they believe they’re normalized? They think that’s okay to do that.
00;13;10;09 – 00;17;11;15
Bob Vandepol
I’m going to start with that first. It’s time for a nose to nose discussion that is supportive but firm. No, bullying is not okay. Bullying is not okay. Now, sometimes bullies are people who have been bullied. Sometimes all these are people who witnessed it in their families and they’ve seen that happen. Sometimes kids just need to know that’s not what you do. That is absolutely inappropriate. You wouldn’t go to school without a shirt and you don’t go to school and bully people. And that’s how it is. But yeah, it is too common in every age group. It happens the most in middle school. Sixth grade is the most dangerous class, the most dangerous age for bullying. Unfortunately, a significant percentage of kids get it. And so I just I think it’s helpful to talk to kids about, you know, every time that there’s bullying, it’s almost like the school play that there are roles that people play, and there will be one person who does the bullying. Now, I don’t want to call him a bully because even though I may want to discipline that child firmly myself, I don’t want to call him a bully because it’s a kid. And that’s not all of who they are. That’s not their identity. But they’re a kid who bullied. So they’ll be one of those. Almost every bully will then have the kid that they bully. I don’t want to call them a victim. I don’t want anybody to be called the victim. Maybe they were victimized by bullying, but they’re a survivor of bullying. I think language is important here. Victims, you stay stuck. Survivor, you move past. So those are two. The person who bullied the person who got bullied most bullies will also have some minions and they will have people a little pack that goes with them who yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, who supports them. They may not step forward and bully themselves, but they hide behind the bully and they do it. I call them the minions. There’s another group that’s watches but doesn’t do anything about it. They’re the bystanders and they stay passive and they don’t want to get involved because they’re afraid then they’ll be targeted by bullying. And then there’s the hero of the story that should all be wearing capes, because there’s another group that we called upstanders, not the bystanders, but the upstanders, And these are the kids who will say, hey, knock it off. That’s my friend. Don’t treat anybody like that. That’s absolutely inappropriate. That’s not how we do it. And if it happens again, I’ll go to the principal and they will protect the person who’s being victimized. So I think just having that conversation as a parent or as a caretaker, a caring adult, to say, all right, what role do you play? Isn’t it courageous to be an upstander if you are victimized by bullying? Don’t you wish somebody had done that for you? If you were a bystander, what would it take for you to be able to become more active? If you’re a minion? Oh, boy. It is hard to have a lot of dignity as a minion because you’re hiding behind somebody who who’s afraid also. Bullies don’t pick on people bigger than them. Bullies don’t pick on people they’re afraid of. They pick on people that they see as easy marks. So if I’m having that conversation with a minion and I used to do that as if when I was a therapist and sometimes. How do you feel about yourself? How do you feel about yourself? There’s more to you than that. How can you empower yourself so that you don’t have to hide behind somebody who’s afraid? What can you do to build some skill and some strength so you’re empowered and you don’t have to do that anymore to feel like you can fit into a social world. Those are hard conversations, but can be helpful.
00;17;12;01 – 00;17;34;12
Rick Hoaglund
What kind of resources should if you thought that your child was either being bullied or a bully or any of the other classes that you mentioned, what other resources should you be going to your school? Should you be especially, I’m guessing, a lot of children and young adults both would say, do not go to the school with this. I’m telling you this in confidence. I’m being bullied. Do not go to the school. What do you say to that?
00;17;34;12 – 00;18;52;17
Bob Vandepol
You say, I care enough about you to risk ticking you off. One, we will try to deal with it ourselves. And if I’m the parent, if I’m a parent, somebody picked on my kid. There’s a part of me that I’m not very proud of or I want to go have a talk to that kid. Dumb idea. Dumb idea, because there’s a power differential between us. I think it needs to be adult to adult. So some of this depends upon what you know about the parents of the kid bullied. And if you have a relationship with them, ideally you’d be able to go to them and say, Hey, I’m a parent too. I’m a caregiver too. My kid isn’t perfect either, but I want you to know what it was reported to me that your son or daughter did. I want you to know that. And it really hurt my kid, and I want that to stop. And if I can help you parent, because parenting is a hard job. If I can help you with that, I’m glad to. But I want you to know that it needs to stop because it’s hurting my kid. My next stop will be the school. Now, if I know that that parent is not going to receive that well because of some history with them, I’m going straight to the school whether my kids want me to or not. I really am. And I care enough about you to risk doing something that you don’t want me to do because I want you to be safe.
00;18;53;04 – 00;19;09;15
Rick Hoaglund
Let’s talk about another kind of bullying. Maybe in some ways it’s even more difficult. It’s just as prevalent. Studies have shown that by the time someone is 18 years old, about 50% of students will have encountered this. And it’s cyber bullying. Let’s start out with what is cyberbullying?
00;19;09;15 – 00;20;25;21
Bob Vandepol
Cyberbullying is doing all the things that regular bullying is only doing it online. And so through social media, through texting. If we talked about bullying as before, as being a very non courageous act because people who bully only pick on those who are vulnerable. Cyberbullying is yet another step toward I’m going to use real language toward cowardice, because now I can say the things relatively safely hidden behind the Internet. And it’s even easier to pick up minions online than it is face to face. Because when I post something on a kid social media thing, everybody feels pressured to weigh in. There’s that fear of missing out, especially electronically, and people can be very, very vicious. Now it’s one thing if I’m kind of on the line between having some empathy and not wanting to hurt people and yet wanting to do this to fit in. It’s a little harder if I see the person face to face and I see the pain on their face and I see the reactions of other people. If I’m doing this from my bedroom in the dark, under the blankets, I don’t see any of that. And it’s easier to be even more brutal.
00;20;25;21 – 00;20;48;12
Rick Hoaglund
Teachers say this is the number one thing that they worry about with their students because it’s just so prevalent. There’s two things for me. How do parents talk to their child about this? But secondly, why do teenagers take it so personally? I mean, there’s got to be something in their makeup. I’m guessing, And being a young adult, learning to face criticism in a way. But there is more than criticism. It’s meanness.
00;20;48;12 – 00;22;07;15
Bob Vandepol
You know, I I was a strict parent of three children, and they knew when I got them iPhones and the ability to be online that I had all kinds of monitoring privileges. And I had to stay tech savvy enough to know how to do it. But they knew that that was going to be that because they thought that there was anything deficient about them. But because I love them so much, I wanted them to be safe. And so I think that platform is really important. And there are some social media platforms that are very age appropriate about what kids should be on. Some of them, I’m not sure if it’s age appropriate for any age to be on, but there. Why is it so impactful? Because for a kid in our current age, and especially just coming out of COVID, kids talk with their thumbs. And that’s the most powerful way to do and think about it. In most conversations, it’s one kid with, what, five people around? When you do it virtually, it’s dozens or hundreds or thousands or millions of people who can witness it. And so it’s easy to take it very personally and it’s permanent. Words in the air stop, even though they hurt forever. But what’s said in social media lasts forever. And I think kids know that.
00;22;07;15 – 00;22;22;27
Rick Hoaglund
What are the signs that you’re looking for? You’re just talking to your kid and you feel like you have a good relationship with them. When things change, what are your the changes you’re looking for and how do you handle that? At what point do you step in and say, okay, we need to have a talk?
00;22;22;27 – 00;23;35;00
Bob Vandepol
I think some of the signs that you’re going to see are depression and anxiety. You’re going to see kids who and this is where it’s really important to have a good relationship with your kids so that you know what their benchmark behavior is like. You know how much sleep they usually get, how much they usually eat, how much energy they have, how socially active they are, what their grades are, You know, that stuff. And so you look for a change. And if you see a kid who now all of a sudden can’t sleep or is sleeping excessively, whose appetite changes, who cries more than usual, who isn’t enjoying things that they formerly enjoyed and has no excitement about it, is anxious about going into social settings that they used to enjoy or at least tolerate it if their grades drop. If you hear anything about life isn’t worth it. If they become more irritable than usual. Now, these are hard because based on the age of your children, especially adolescence, all of these things happen every day. But if it’s more than it was before, Hey, I care about you enough to risk having an awkward conversation. Are you okay? I’ve noticed this is different about you. And we talk.
00;23;35;00 – 00;23;54;14
Rick Hoaglund
Is it ever appropriate to have, like, a friend have a conversation? Because you feel like for some reason, your relationship with your child is fragile for whatever reason? Is it ever okay to say, hey, he really likes, you know, the parents best friend? Or maybe it’s a relative? Is it okay to have a substitute come in and have these conversations?
00;23;54;29 – 00;24;38;10
Bob Vandepol
It sure is. Rick, one- I’m not real smart, but I’m this smart. I had four of my friends that I trust implicitly, and we all made a commitment, you know, almost signed one of these Blood Brother pacts where we would check in on each other’s kids. And so we made a commitment to go to their workplaces and eat French fries, to go to their ballgames, their recitals, to look them up and that kind of stuff. Because sometimes kids will talk to other caring adults when they won’t talk to their own parents. Sometimes that just happens. And if you’re a real caring parent, that’s okay. It’s not about ego that my kid has come to me. It’s my kids safe and thriving.
00;24;38;10 – 00;24;45;14
Rick Hoaglund
Okay, I’m gonna throw a kind of a divisive question. Is it okay to also use that child’s friends, or is that a no no?
00;24;45;22 – 00;25;42;03
Bob Vandepol
Carefully, I’d say carefully. Yes. There are potential pitfalls in that. You could break up that friendship if your child sees their friend is betraying them or becoming your hired gun. But it certainly can be. Again, full transparency. That’s one of the reasons why I coached all the sports that my kids played was because I knew that one, I could support them by doing so. But two, I could so into their friends and know who they were and hopefully raise the vote for them. And that would help my kids at the same time. So buying a lot of pizza and having the kids in your basement, keeping you up all night isn’t a bad idea because that way you can hopefully enhance the whole system, which helps your child too. You’re likely to hear stuff from those kids or you over hear conversations where you would know if your kid was in trouble.
00;25;42;03 – 00;25;45;14
Rick Hoaglund
So you should be the parent that all the kids want to go to their house.
00;25;45;14 – 00;25;59;04
Bob Vandepol
Yes, it’s expensive and causes sleep deprivation, but it’s worth it. Yes. Or the Cub Scout leader or whatever, whatever being involved in what your child is doing. Yes. Yes.
00;25;59;16 – 00;26;20;13
Rick Hoaglund
If you had to say some takeaways from our conversation today to parents, do you have any words of wisdom, I mean, going forward? Because I would say that almost every parent out there, every teacher that might be listening, every friend of someone that’s going through this might need to have these kind of conversations. What do you tell them? What’s your takeaway?
00;26;20;13 – 00;27;00;04
Bob Vandepol
Take a deep breath and then listen. And then when you’re finished listening, listen some more. Your kids need to be safe. They need to know that they’re not just getting a prepackaged lecture yet another one. And so your availability and your listening is so important. Which shouts from the rooftop, I care about you. I care about what you think. I care about what you feel. Those are wonderful things to say to your kids. And you can do that by listening and stay close enough to know. Know your kid well enough to look for these differences, but take a deep breath and have the conversation.
00;27;00;25 – 00;27;16;24
Rick Hoaglund
For a parent that just does not have this conversation. What are they risking by not talking about this? Because I could see some parents saying, Oh, they’ll just learn it on their own. This is not to be my business. What do you do? What are they risking? What could happen to the child?
00;27;16;24 – 00;27;50;07
Bob Vandepol
That, yes, they will learn it on their own and that they will learn incorrectly. And so they will learn that either I am a victim and I deserve to be bullied. I deserve to be a victim of violence. I deserve to have friends and partners in life that abuse me or it’s okay for me to do it or to be apathetic bystanders when they see injustices that impact people. We want to raise children who have some empathy for others and will take a bold stand to care for other people too.
00;27;50;22 – 00;27;52;21
Rick Hoaglund
Anything else you’d like to add?
00;27;52;21 – 00;28;04;03
Bob Vandepol
Parenting is hard work. Being a caring adult, whatever it is. Uncle, grandparent, coach, teacher. It’s hard work, but it’s worth it. Put out the effort.
00;28;04;03 – 00;29;16;11
Rick Hoaglund
Bob, thanks so much for joining us today to talk about this with our listeners. We really appreciate it. This episode is part one of my conversation with Bob. Come back next time for part two when Bob and I discuss how to talk to kids, when they see violence in the news or hear about it at school. To hear that episode and other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website, Empathia.com. Follow us on social media at Empathia and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick. Thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia.