Episode 32: Addiction Recovery with Dr. Ted Carroll, Part One

00;00;09;02 – 00;01;47;12
Rick Hoaglund
Imagine your brain being hijacked. Your actions, thoughts, and cravings are out of control. You crave something so badly that you’ll do whatever you can to quench it. It may be damaging to your friends, losing your children, your marriage, your family, or even harming yourself. You can never have enough willpower to overcome this urge. You may be an addict. It takes more than good intentions to overcome an addiction. Drugs, alcohol or other substances can take over your brain, and biology steps in. Scientists have found that the hard wiring of the brain changes. The brain normally warns us against things that can harm us. But in the brain of an addict, this activity is slowed. The urge to feel good, or at least not feel so bad, overwrites the part of the brain that tells us drugs and alcohol or certain behaviors are bad for us. Today we’ll be joined by Ted Carroll. He’s are recovering addict. Tis life story may shock you, but it ends well. You’re listening to OnTopic with Empathia! I’m your host, Rick Hoaglund. If you met Dr. Ted Carroll, you’d never suspect that this educated, informed, ambitious guy once had very little hope for his future, and even experts doubted he’d be successful. Ted Carroll went from being almost homeless to earning his PhD in counselor education in supervision. He leads a therapy agency. He also works for the Washington State DSHS Services, and he’s also an assistant instructor at a university. Welcome, Ted!

00;01;47;15 – 00;01;49;29
Dr. Ted Carroll
Hi! It’s good to be here, Rick. Thanks for having me!

00;01;50;01 – 00;02;02;27
Rick Hoaglund
Thank you! Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. I think it might be best to just start off by just- just tell us your story! Tell us, tell us where you come from and your- your story!

00;02;02;29 – 00;35;59;04
Dr. Ted Carroll
Sure. You bet! Thanks for, thanks for the opportunity. So, you know, I had a great childhood! I won’t talk too much about childhood, but I will say it was a great childhood. Mostly. Almost the entire childhood was great, except I did experience some trauma at age five and, four and five, I, I, yeah, I experienced sexual trauma from a stranger. And so that was a big part of my development there forward. And so anyhow, I had a super loving family, though parents, that raised me with, spiritual faith. I won’t go into that specific faith. I don’t think it’s relevant necessarily. So they are super loving people, taught me to, kind of be of service, be present, take care of myself, be there for family members, do kind of what I’m interested in. They said, you know, they would always support anything that made me happy and they just wanted me to succeed. I had a great experience through school all the way through high school and by the way in high school I did start to dabble in drugs and alcohol and, specifically started with alcohol. Actually before high school, probably junior high. When I was 13 or 14, I would sneak beers from my dad’s stash. And he wasn’t a big drinker, but he did keep a case or two in the basement kind of thing. And so I’d hide a can or two, at a time kind of thing. And then- and then, you know, on a weekend or something. I started doing that. I started just drinking all those kind of at one time, and, I don’t know, I didn’t think anything of it. I was just, honestly, looking back, it was kind of of a survival mechanism. It was something I had to do to kind of be comfortable. And I didn’t realize that at the time. And so, anyhow, that was kind of my first experience with alcohol. And, and through high school, I, I went to a private Jesuit high school in Spokane, Washington, and, and so there was actually a lot of drinking there. and through the, through my high school years, though, I, I don’t know, I kind of fit in with every crowd, I was- I had a good social life in one sense, but I was kind of a chameleon. I, could fit in wherever, whenever. And, I wasn’t a huge partier, but I got invited to every party, so that was convenient on some level! At the same time, nobody really knew me. And that was part of my my emotional trauma, really. That was part of my, just not being comfortable with who I was. There was a lot going on interpersonally. I had some, sexuality questions. I was working through that, just really starting to date and that kind of thing, and I was very confused and just lost, and yet on the outside, you know, everything looked great! I was getting straight A’s! I was part of every social circle, invited to all the things, people liked me. The thing is, I hated myself, or I thought I did anyway, looking back, I’m not sure I really knew myself, but anyhow, that was my experience. I, really loathed myself, and I wasn’t sure why on a lot of levels. And yet I, I really kind of, you know, that self-hate was capitalized on the things that I thought were going on with me. So anyhow, so that kind of fueled- I didn’t know it, but looking back at subconsciously, if you want my- my desire to escape emotionally and- and so I started doing some pills in high school and I started also supplementing with alcohol and, and, just started smoking weed and anyhow, that continued. I got a partial academic scholarship to Seattle Pacific University and, you know, that was cool, right? I mean, so I wasn’t going to turn down that because that was a big chunk of money for college. And, and yet, you know, I grew up in Spokane, Washington. So that was, really not far from home. And yet I when I moved there for college, it was kind of like a, culture shock. And I just was away from all the people that, you know, cared about me, that I cared about and, you know, landed with, with a bunch of strangers, really, even though it wasn’t geographically too far away from home. So, anyhow, I actually was sober during that time. I- clean and sober. I even stopped smoking cigarettes, which I was doing at the time, and, and anyhow, that was just kind of interesting because I think I just wanted to start fresh. what that did spiral me into- into suicide, suicidal ideation. And, I really, you know, from, from then tried to kill myself, both actively and passively several times over the next couple of years. And specifically, I was so much in despair, within six months of- of really being at college that I, yeah, I attempted suicide. And so I, essentially came back home to live with my parents for a while, and, and from there, I just kind of tried to work through my issues, honestly. Just try to take some time off. But what happened was I became more suicidal and, ended up at, Providence Sacred Heart psychiatric ward for a couple of months, which is kind of a long stay for that place! Meant to be short term, usually a week or two at most. Anyhow, so they didn’t really know what to do with me. I- although I was at first there voluntary, it turned into an involuntary stay and and then I escaped, which I’m not proud of necessarily, but it’s an intriguing part of my story when I look back and, and, you know, arguably it wasn’t too hard to do, but at the same time, you know, there were a couple sets of locked doors and things I had to figure out. And anyhow, the point is that I tried to to commit suicide again. And I won’t go into the details of that. I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant. But here’s the thing. Then they got me here. Essentially, I, I kind of turned myself in as a short version, because here, I just didn’t know what to do! I was- I was so tired of being sick and tired. I didn’t really know what was going on with me emotionally. I had just started therapy, by the way, during around that time when I moved back- back home from college. And so I really got involved in my own therapy, and really, that was just that was super interesting to me. So I, I kind of latched on to psychology and actually, I hadn’t mentioned it yet, but I started reading, psychology books and, like, Freud and Jung, an early age, actually, like age 11 or 12. So that was kind of, you know, that was helpful. I also started reading books about spirituality and theology and all other kinds of topics at that age. And so, you know, I kind of think that I was really starting to be super open minded at that time without really knowing that I was, you know, I certainly wasn’t trying to do that. That was just my experience intellectually and emotionally. So the point is I started therapy, I was in my own therapy. And then again, the suicide, suicidality, the, actions, both both active and passive, I started using again, mostly weed and alcohol to start. And I say alcohol, I mean, you know, straight vodka or straight whiskey. It wasn’t I mean, I needed the hard stuff, and I needed it quick. I usually didn’t bother to pour it in a glass by any means. And, and so anyhow, then the, you know, the marijuana and, and the pills came back, and I say pills, I mean opiates for, for the most part, I would abuse as much as I could. Although I didn’t get too, too kind of lost in that, if you will, like, a lot like, some other folks I know, for whatever reason, I think it was just because I was drinking so much alcohol and marijuana that I preferred that or something, or that, I was too inebriated to go get more pills. Maybe is what I’d put. In any sense, my own therapy continued. And then again, I was at that, Sacred Heart, though, age 19, maybe something like that. And I, Yeah, I was there for a couple months, and then they didn’t know what to do with me, so they, shipped me off to, Eastern State Hospital, which really isn’t too far down the road, but a few miles in Cheney, Washington or Medical Lake, rather, right outside of Cheney, Washington. Anyhow. So, that’s considered a long term stay facility and some people, you know, live out the rest of their lives there. Essentially, it’s a residential, inpatient mental health hospital. What- what maybe used to be called the sanatorium, or nut ward or, something like that. So anyhow, I was there for about a month, and, I also tried well, right before then, I tried to kill myself kind of on the way. And so anyhow, then I was there with a bunch of different people, whom I hadn’t really run into before in that, on that level of mental health, those people experiencing that level of mental health episode, if you will. And so it was a different experience than I’d ever had. And then, honestly, it scared me. It it really frightened me. So I, I kind of I’m not sure what happened, to be honest, but I remember staring out of, a window at Eastern State Hospital and it was like, through a grated window or I don’t know if there were bars or grates on the window, but something was on the window. It wasn’t a regular window. I know that doesn’t- doesn’t really matter, but I’ll tell you what! That memory sticks with me because I- I looked outside and I could see some grass and see some trees and, and I just knew that, somehow I wanted to live and, and it was a spiritual experience, I’d call it, looking back. I call it a moment of clarity, because before that, I was kind of at the jumping off point. It’s what they call that, I call that, meaning kind of between a rock and a hard place. Right? But I couldn’t live without alcohol and drugs, and I couldn’t live without it. And, so I didn’t know what to do. Right? But that moment, looking out the window at Eastern State Hospital, I just knew that I wanted to live, and there were people around me, hurting each other physically. There was abuse of all kinds going on, mostly from the folks or the residential folks there. So I had a pretty good experience with the staff, actually, which I’m appreciative of. I’m thankful for those, those folks. And anyhow, I- after several meetings with a psychiatrist in house there at Eastern State Hospital, I, I don’t know what happened, but I say I convinced that that doctor that I, that I wanted to live, which kind of made sense to me looking back, because I did I, you know, I convinced myself or- or whatever happened, I did want to live at that time. The first 2 or 3 meetings with him, he didn’t believe me, and he told me so. But, that was interesting, except that I see where he was coming from. and then he did believe me, after, like I said, 3 or 4 meetings. So- So anyhow, I was out within 5 or 6 weeks anyway of there and I-c here’s the thing. I came out of there on 11 different psychotropic medications. And that’s just part of my story. And, I had already started a few before that kind of one at a time, as it is. But, but maybe I went in there maybe on 2 or 3 and came out on 11 psychotropic medications. And I’m talking some heavy hitters. If you’re familiar with, Geodon and Seroquel and Topamax and Lithium. So those are just a few- Risperda,l and again, doesn’t so much matter, but part of my story. And so I’ll get there. But, anyhow, so then I started really adding a lot more marijuana to the mix and a lot more booze, and, because I wanted to live, but, but I needed my medication and so to speak, and I don’t mean the psychotropic kind, although, I, although I don’t necessarily have a lot of opinions about that today as a professional and as a person, and I won’t comment so much on that except to say that, that I would say, even though I don’t necessarily agree as a professional with how that happened. I will say that psychotropic medication saved my life on many occasions in those years. I will say, interestingly, so did drugs and alcohol. So looking forward, I just kept, kind of trying to survive. I wasn’t suicidal anymore, per se, and I didn’t try to kill myself anymore after that. I was about 20 years old now and really started attending 12 step meetings. And actually I had attended my first one, I think at age 17, 17 or 18. And, but 1 or 2 between the ages of 17 or 20, or at least a handful maybe. But anyhow, then I really started attending more 12 step meetings. At age 20, I wasn’t working. I had, well, kind of throughout that time and before the hospitalization, I actually worked in the human resources, area of a corporate company. Telecommunications, really. But I also, kind of started from the floor up there and, ended up as their corporate risk management coordinator. So, that was like at age 20. So I thought I was, you know, doing okay. And that was, anyway, timeline. Maybe it’s a bit jumbled there with, with school and whatnot, but at 22 or age 22, I was I went back to that and I was doing that and and so anyhow then, then came the methamphetamines. I was, functional, arguably up to that point, after the hospitalization, that is at least for a couple, three years, maybe. But, anyhow, then I,had a friend, you know, a good friend, very good friend said, well, you should never do this, but I found this amazing thing, and it’s called meth. Crystal meth. And I said, well, you’re telling me about it. I want to do it! And I like I hadn’t heard about it. but in my mind, that was somewhere I would never go. I was never going to do crystal meth. That was never on my, agenda. Even suicidal. I mean, not sure I thought about it much at that time, but this and, So anyhow, I was never going to do that! And so that night I did crystal meth for the first time. And, and it changed my perspective, to say the least. I and, created an obsession in my mind and in my spirit. I say, that was terrible. It was evil. I say, and I don’t use that word lightly. I don’t use it very often. But, my experience with crystal meth was that I met evil face to face. And, over the next couple years that was, off and on my experience. And certainly I was addicted. And I stopped working completely and, with the encouragement of my father, thankfully, you, kind of helped facilitate. He’s an attorney, so he helped facilitate- well he just knew to do stuff, right? So anyway, he helped facilitate, getting me onto Social Security disability income, really at that time. So the the key part of that is that in a Social Security court of law I was determined to be permanently mentally disabled. And, that would took some months, you know, that took some months, took a couple of years, I think. Really. And it was through seeing more, psychiatrists and, getting more enmeshed in the meth, the methamphetamine, culture, if you will. And then also just that physical obsession and addiction that really overpowered me to my core. And I see it really, captured my spirit, and certainly not in a good way. Right? In the worst of ways. So then, from there forward, I, I went to treatment for the first time, drug and alcohol inpatient treatment and, about 3 or 4 times I went to drug and alcohol treatment, inpatient. And I, that first one, I, you know, thought I was just addicted to methamphetamine, that I didn’t have a problem with other substances. So I told the staff there as much. I told my, substance use counselor, and they, they said, okay, well, clearly you have some things to learn, and, we’ll keep you for a while, though. Anyhow, I came out of that treatment center and went, right, to buy a bottle of booze, and, and I, you know, downed a fifth a vodka pretty quick, let’s just say that. And so, you know, I didn’t use meth after that, which is interesting to me. A nd, I did drink heavily and more heavily, and so I was 23 or 25 now in there and I was just drinking bottle after bottle and quantity doesn’t matter so much to me when it comes to substance use. It just means that, you know, whatever it takes, right? Whatever it takes the vehicle to get me out of myself kind of thing. And that’s kind of how I, how I saw that, although I didn’t always think about it that way, I was hardly conscious too, you know, a lot of the time, in fact, looking back, I was, really repressing a lot of things, and I shared right off the bat about my, abuse at age five, from a stranger, the sexual abuse. And here’s the thing. I didn’t know that, till about 2010. And, so just saying, I was, what, like 32 years old in 2010. And in my story here, I’m 25. So, anyhow, I didn’t know that, at all. It wasn’t a conscious thought or experience or memory at all until age 32! So there’s more to that now part, of course, I’ll talk about later. But, anyhow, so what happened is I, went to a couple more treatment centers, like, I would say an inpatient treatment. And I also attended several countless really outpatient drug and alcohol treatment centers. And that was, you know, one, two, three, 4 or 5 times a week, kind of the different, different, levels of care depending on kind of those different assessments before I entered those institutions or those programs. Anyhow, I had started community college, by the way, during this time, I like I said, I went to Seattle Pacific University, but because it was such a quick trip, really to Seattle for that, college experience, I, I ended up where maybe with five credits or something from 1999 or something like that. So the point is, I barely had a high school diploma. I mean, you know, five college credits maybe, started back at community college. but I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t even do a quarter. So I was too, too lost in alcohol and too unconscious of it’s use in my own life. And so anyhow, I just needed to. Well, I don’t know what what happened is. I just sought after more alcohol and I added other drugs at that time as well. But although I didn’t go back to meth anyhow, so, I started going to, 12 step meetings more frequently. And this is voluntary, right? I’m just saying, these were in the community and, and I started going because I didn’t know where else to go. To be honest, I, I could only, stay at my, either I was in and out of my parents basement for quite a while, and, and then, I had a studio apartment most of the time, or a one bedroom apartment, you know, kind of, downtown Spokane for for years and years. So, anyhow, I, I could only stay there so long and kind of, pass out. And I should mention, too, I experienced homelessness along the way. It wasn’t maybe strict homelessness. But I’m just saying I didn’t have a home for quite some time, and lived at a trap house, essentially. Trap house is, you know, so making, and, dealing a lot of drugs through that house and whatnot. So not myself, per se. but, the people that, resided there, and I was more like a hanger on, if you will. So anyway, I, I just started to, go to 12 step meetings and, and this is, I don’t know, 2005, 2006 now and I’m, I’m what they told me permanently mentally disabled. And I’m, really latching on to that identity, by the way, because I needed to know what was wrong with me. I thought, and, you know, along with those 11 psychotropic medications, by the way, coming out of Eastern State Hospital, there were, diagnoses to match each one. Pretty much, you know, so, that was intriguing to me as well. And so when the the government, when the federal government labeled me as permanently mentally disabled, I really latched on to that. And, I couldn’t have told you that. And then probably that that was happening. But looking back, I can see that. Yeah, I really needed to something to tell me, what was wrong with me? Because I knew something was for a long time. And so anyhow, that was kind of welcomed in a way at that time. and it kind of explain things for me, and it kind of gave me an avenue to, to live life and afford a studio apartment, that kind of thing. And, and, anyhow, so I was relatively stable considering, at that time, more so than I’d been in a lot of years. And so started going to more and more 12 step meetings in 2006, I’d say maybe. Yeah. And, and from, I don’t know, 2006 and the next three years from there on, I really, really wanted to stay clean and sober most of the time, but I couldn’t, and I’m not sure what happened. I’d like to think I know. I used to really think I needed to know, and I analyzed it and I studied it and I talked about it. And, here’s the thing for me, I don’t get to know, and that’s okay. and I have a lot of theories, and most of the time I don’t entertain those anymore because bottom line, it just doesn’t matter to me. And what did happen, though, is I stayed coming back to those 12 step meetings and people in there said things like, hey, welcome, glad you’re here! And, you know, I just hadn’t heard that at least outside of maybe my parents or something in quite some time. and maybe some other family, just to be fair, but, just saying that, you know, I don’t think they were really glad I was there most the time that my family that was even though I know they left me. Any other people in these meetings were so welcoming. They gave me, like, donuts and coffee and and by the way, another part of my story that I’ll throw in there, there is that I, one of my diagnoses was an eating disorder, and I’m not sure how accurate the actual diagnosis was, but what happened for me over the years was I, I, started just eating and eating and eating, especially when I was drinking, and and I was over approximately 300 pounds. And it’s not a comment so much on the weight itself. For me, it’s about what was happening on the inside and manifesting outwardly. And so, just saying, I was a skinny kid my whole life, all through high school. And, and so from a young age and so, you know, so that was different for me, of course, is what I’m saying. And it didn’t, it didn’t feel like me was the thing. And, and again, not sure about the diagnosis necessarily. Don’t really care. But that’s what happened. And and so anyway, these 12 step meetings, so people are like, so I guess the reason I shared that right then is because I came in and I sat down and I was really overweight, I was obese, and I, and it really, again, not so much a comment on that. But the other thing is I couldn’t really form a sentence anymore, and I’m not sure why. I mean, I, I could get one together and I could speak just, you know, kind of here and there. But, I really couldn’t put thoughts together is really what it was. And I couldn’t communicate. I didn’t communicate very well at all. And so, anyhow, it was really difficult to be around people. I had severe social anxiety. And, at least that’s how that manifested. And, there’s a lot a lot of those other diagnoses kind of made sense over the years. B cut how that all happened and, and kind of, you know, not sure about some of that and again, don’t really need to be today, but so those people said, just stay in these meetings. Come on, let us love you until you can love yourself. And that was kind of an interesting statement. And and they really hit it home though for me because like I said, I hated myself and, at least I thought I did. Right. And so I just kept going back to those meetings. And for three years, I just kind of stayed in those meetings almost every day. But you know what, Rick? I’ll tell you, that was a, that was a, noon meeting. One reason that I was going to that noon meeting. Because because, by the way, I didn’t stay sober yet. I was drinking every day still. And- and that’s what I’m getting at, is I could make it to that, noon meeting hangover or still have drunk and go home and still get and still be drunk by 3 or 4. And that was not my intention necessarily. That’s just what happened. And so, the noon hour, though, was my most sober times, I’ll tell you that for those three years and in 2009, I’m not sure what happened, but, I just went back to that noon meeting and it was up a spiral staircase in the back of a church in Spokane and downtown Spokane and, kind of a, you had to go through an alley to get there. And on the way you could, you know, score some drugs or other things if you wanted to. So, you know, it’s an interesting place to find recovery. But what happened in 2009 was, that I, went back to that meeting and, and, a guy who actually is my best friend that they went to, excuse me, one of my very best friends today. He was just getting clean and sober, and he, had about three months of clean time, so clean and sober time, but he was kinda kind of hating life. And so he went to his 12 step sponsor and said, hey, if this is what sobriety is, I’m out. I used to have friends, and he was a different kind of drunk than me, a different kind of user and drinker. He was the life of the party kind of guy. That was not my story. I was, a recluse and pretty anti-social that kind of described. Anyhow, a sponsor told them, post that sponsor said, well, hey, go go find the most pathetic looking son of a bitch in the room and befriend him. And that was me, incidentally. So we joke about that today, and that’s, who turned out to be the best man at my wife’s wedding. My- our wedding. I’ll talk more about her in a minute, too. But it’s been a cool story, I’ll tell you that. And life’s a trip today, but- so what happened is I- he helped me get my first 12 step sponsors. What I’m getting at, and, I didn’t know. I mean, I don’t know, I, I actually had had other 12 step sponsors before that and that, you know, through that meeting and meeting people in that, community. But for whatever reason, didn’t stay clean and sober. Then, even though I tried to work the 12 steps and but what he did is he really shared his story with me one on one after his sponsor told him to do that, he said, hey, Ted, let’s go out to coffee. I, I need to tell you my story. And I thought, well, that’s an interesting take on things, and I’m really not sure I was conscious enough to think of it like that at the time. But I’m like, okay. And, totally, you were right! Anyhow, so I, which was different, I’ll tell you what, it was different for me to accept his coffee invitation after that noon meeting. So, that was one thing that was I was different, although I kind of done that before, but not to someone who said it like that. Who said, hey, I need to tell you my story. And I thought, oh, okay! Because something in me knew I could, you know, maybe I could help this guy. And, I’m not sure what that was or how much of a thought that was. But anyhow, I went to coffee with him and he shared a story with me, and I really related on some things that were super personal and disturbing and, and just, intimate there, intimate details of his life. And I was like, what- in my, I didn’t even know why he was sharing these things with me, except he said he needed to or something. So anyhow, that’s what happened. And, in the next week or two, here’s the thing. What happened is I went out and bought a bottle of whiskey at the local liquor store, has a liquor store then in Washington state. And anyhow, I called my 12 step sponsor at my little one bedroom apartment in downtown Spokane. That was different. I called my 12 step sponsor after I bought a bottle of whiskey. And what happened is I poured that down the sink and that was new. That was a spiritual experience, it was also super disturbing and uncomfortable. And then I bought another bottle of whiskey two days later with every intention to drink it, of course, and not to call my sponsor. But I did. I called my 12 step sponsor again and poured that bottle down the sink, and- and that was interesting and also new and two times in a row and, and also super, disconcerting. I didn’t know what was going on, Anyhow, so, I kept going back to those meetings and I didn’t drink again as of July 15th of 2009, and I didn’t drink or use any drugs since then. And, and what happened then is like a year and a half or so. Well, I was a year- about a year and a half into that sober time. So in 2010, some time I came home from a 12 step meeting and I- and part of the part of the process of the 12 steps that I’ve learned about is, is writing. There’s some specific kind of writing suggestions, and I was doing one of those, actually. I just actually I think I was intended to do that, but I just started free writing first. And what happened was all the details of that, sexual abuse at age five came out on paper. And, that was unexpected. Again, I didn’t even know that had happened until that time. And, and so it was really intense. It was an intense time. And, and, you know, my emotional wellness, what felt like it was turning for the worse in the next few weeks after that, because that was some surprising news. That was heavy stuff. So I went back to therapy, and I was kind of in and out of my own therapy this whole time. But I got some, some help with that and realized, what might have, occurred emotionally for me over the years. And I was able to connect some dots and, and, and also realized that I didn’t need to know everything. But I will say that becoming aware of some of the, emotional, trauma that resulted from- from the physical or sexual trauma at age five really opened my mind. And heart and spirit, if you will. So what happened is I started feeling more free than ever, and I started I’d already been sponsoring other guys in 12 step programs, and, and having some cool experiences with that. And so it was very rewarding. and I will- I’m, I want to mention this because it’s so important and, and I don’t want to forget to say it is that when I was about six months clean and sober or actually, I should say in my in my first six months clean and sober. So actually, starting in July, late July of 2009, I got a new psychiatrist. And, I hadn’t been very consistent with the other one I had. And anyhow, the, the, the psychiatrist says, Ted, you know, I know about alcoholism and addiction and, and I, you know, and I don’t know what we should do with you, really, but you’re on a lot of psychotropic medications, and I’m just curious if you really need to be or let’s sort it out and find maybe which ones will be actually helpful for you ongoing. Because what do you what he told me is that, you know, we don’t have a blank slate. It we don’t have a reference point for you, really. We- what I’d like to do, he said, is if you’re up for it, is one at a time. Let’s stop these psychotropic medications and then of course, you can, you know, you can go back on them. It’s always up to you. He was sure to empower me in that way and gave me the choice, and it was always up to me. I appreciated that, especially looking back as a professional now. I appreciate that he- he approached it that way. Anyhow, so the short story of that, of that scenario is that I got off all the psychotropic medications in the first six months of my sobriety, and that wasn’t intentional necessarily. I mean, it became intentional, right? But it wasn’t my intention, you know, getting clean and sober. And then part of my story, too, is that I actually, in the first few years of sobriety, the first few winters, actually, I did have some a, some seasonal affective disorder, actually, I had some, winter depression for sure. And so I did go back on a medication or two at that time. Really just one, I guess. One at a time. Anyhow, during those darker months and, I went back to a professional course for that prescription and, anyhow, it’s been a few years now since I’ve needed to do that, but I will say that I’m willing to do that today if, because a big part of my story is that I’m, I’m a willing- I need to be willing to do whatever is good for me. And I you know, my brain says a lot of things. I don’t always agree with what’s good for me necessarily, so it takes some accountability and, some reaching out and being accountable with other people, including some professionals sometimes for sure. So, that’s just something that I certainly learned was willingness and willingness to take care of myself and willingness to try, things that I don’t necessarily agree with at face value and, and exploring those avenues. So that was a huge part of my story.

00;35;59;06 – 00;36;26;07
Rick Hoaglund
In our next episode, we’ll continue our conversation with Dr. Ted Carroll. We’ll discuss his road to recovery and how resilience plays into this. To hear other episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit our website, www.empathia.com. Follow us on social media @Empathia, and subscribe to OnTopic with Empathia to hear new episodes as soon as they go live. I’m Rick Hoaglund – thanks for listening to OnTopic with Empathia!