Episode 70: Second Chances in Prison Reform with Dr. Buck Blodgett, Part 1

00;00;09;03 – 00;01;45;00
Kelly Parbs
Sometimes life puts us in situations we never imagined. How we respond and what we do with our pain can create ripple effects far beyond our own lives. I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. I’m a licensed clinical social worker, and I’ve spent my career helping people show up with intention in their relationships, their work, and their everyday lives. Many of you may remember my earlier conversations with Dr. Buck Blodgett in episodes 24 and 25, where we talked about forgiveness, what it means, why it matters, and how it can change us. Today, Buck is back to share another chapter of that journey. Doctor Buck Blodgett is the founder of the Love Is Greater Than Hate project and author of “A Message from Jessie”. He has appeared on Dateline, City Confidential, Voice of America, MrBallen, and many other platforms across forms of media. After the tragic murder of his daughter, Buck channeled his grief into helping others find forgiveness and healing, including inside our prison system. His work is about transforming pain into purpose and showing how love is stronger than hate. In this conversation, will be focusing specifically on the creation and structure of the Love is Greater Than Hate prison program, why Buck brings this message behind prison walls, and the lessons we all can take from it. Hello, Dr. Buck! Thank you for joining me today!

00;01;45;03 – 00;01;49;10
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Good morning Kelly! I’m so glad to be here, thank you for having me.

00;01;49;12 – 00;02;06;23
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. Before we dive into the prison program, can you briefly share what happened with Jessie and how the Love is Greater Than Hate project came to be, and how that eventually led you to working in the prisons?

00;02;06;26 – 00;02;59;28
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Sure. We lost Jess. She lost her life in 2013 at the hands of a friend who, who raped and strangled her to death. Surprised her in her sleep and in a planned attack. Not a crime of passion, but a planned attack, a friend. And there’s obviously a much bigger backstory to all of what happened, which we got in an earlier podcast, which you’ll tell people about. Yep. But that’s what happened. That’s the trauma that rocked my world and was not only a horrible, horrible tragedy, obviously, but also it’s a strange thing to say for a dad who loves his daughter, but, also a blessing in ways. What’s come from it? So, I’d love to tell you about that. That’s what I’m here for.

00;03;00;07 – 00;03;50;26
Kelly Parbs
Yep. We definitely want to talk about your your prison program. And I just wanted to say that. Yes, indeed. We did a podcast earlier, and it’s episodes 24 and 25 of OnTopic with Empathia, where we take the time and and tell more of your story – the birth of the Love is Greater Than Hate project, which eventually is what has led to this prison program, which is what we want to talk about today. So Buck, of all of the programs under the Love is Greater Than Hate umbrella, the prison program seems to be one that you have an extra amount of, of passion for. Can you tell us more about the program and why you are so passionate about it?

00;03;50;29 – 00;05;33;15
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Sure. I’ll start this way. If you would’ve told me, Kelly, 12 years ago before this happened, that that it would happen that we lose Jess and her friend who killed her would go to prison, and that then I would. That, I would have this life changing forgiveness experience and end up going into prison to help those guys. And if you were told me it would be the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done, and then I would love it like I do, I would’ve thought you were crazy. Of course! You know, and I was a chiropractor, as you know, by trade for almost 30 years. And in those three decades, people would walk into the clinic sometimes. Sometimes people could barely walk in and, you know, they’d walk out better. And that was really rewarding. People would come in with migraines, and soon they’d feel better. Or, you know, they’d learn how to eat and think and move in healthier ways. And all of that was obviously super rewarding to live a service life like that when nothing. I’ve never done anything that is, still so good as this, as seeing the transformations that we’re seeing in our inmates who, by the way, in Wisconsin, we now call them the people in our care. So that’s what that means when I say that later, the people in our care, our our inmates are incarcerated people and people in rehab. Yeah. Just really, fulfilling and and exciting sometimes to see the changes.

00;05;33;18 – 00;05;42;06
Kelly Parbs
I love how gentle that is. The people in our care. It has such a different feeling to it than than inmates, doesn’t it?

00;05;42;08 – 00;06;06;28
Dr. Buck Blodgett
You know, it’s funny because now when I go in, a lot of the, a lot of staff, you know, we shorten that to P.I.O.C., so now they’re called PIOC’s. And so I refuse, you know, they’re we changed the name from inmate to the people in our care for a reason. Let’s honor that. The spirit of that.

00;06;07;00 – 00;06;20;16
Kelly Parbs
Well, and I would imagine that for them as well, it feels differently to be referred to that way. And maybe helps them start the process of thinking of themselves differently. Maybe.

00;06;20;18 – 00;06;53;28
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. You know, the very beginning of the class that we start, they walk in and, you know, this guy, a lot of these guys have been abandoned, betrayed, have and done the same to other people that these guys don’t trust people. They don’t trust each other. And I make it a point to not call them inmates when the time comes, but to call. You know, I refer to them to their face as the people in our care. And, you know, it’s all about setting a tone right from the beginning that, why were there?

00;06;54;00 – 00;07;11;26
Kelly Parbs
Well, you know, and I’ve never heard you say that. I didn’t know that that’s what you called the inmates. And part of what I love about that, the people in our care is that someone cares, someone is caring for them. And maybe they haven’t experienced a lot of that in their lives.

00;07;11;29 – 00;07;57;07
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah, they’re used to not having people care about them, honestly. We know that over 90% of our incarcerated people, at least in the state of Wisconsin, experienced trauma and abuse before they committed it. And for most of them, that’s a big reason or the reason why they’re there. They’ve lived a life of disconnection from people and, betrayal and abandonment and violence and whatnot. So when someone walks in, you know, usually they don’t believe it at first, but luckily it’s a ten class, ten week program and we have time to get to know each other and and win them over. And when trust gets built, it’s cool.

00;07;57;09 – 00;08;32;14
Kelly Parbs
Oh, I bet it is. And I have I have a lot of questions about the prison program, but it’s just occurring to me now- you know, it’s so incredible that from such pain that you experienced with losing Jessie, you found a way to create a program that helps people heal. Both victims and families, those who have committed harm. But do you think that helping these people is part of your healing as well?

00;08;32;17 – 00;09;33;13
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. You know, I remember back recently, soon after Jessie’s murder. Sometimes people would say to me, that healing, forgiving must be incredibly healing for you, right? And I get a little mad about that. As if that was the reason. Because I didn’t do it for me. I didn’t forgive Dan. I forgave Dan because I had a, a transformative, life changing personal experience about forgiveness and love. And that’s why it was for him, not for me. But, you know, drugs have side effects. And this drug, this forgiveness drug has the incredible side effect of of healing. There, in my opinion, there’s nothing that heals like forgiveness. Nothing. And I mean, on a physical level, as well as a mental, emotional and spiritual level. And it’s not just Buck saying that or the Love Is Greater Than Hate project, it’s the Mayo Clinic says that. Love to talk a little more about that later.

00;09;33;16 – 00;10;09;28
Kelly Parbs
Yeah, let’s let’s do that for sure. And I think we did a little of that in the podcast we did, a while back. And it’s certainly worth revisiting. But you mentioned Dan the, the person who took your daughter’s life, and obviously he’s in prison. Thankfully, he’s in prison and so are other murderers. I would imagine a lot of people say, why on earth would you want to go to a prison and help them after they you know, after he, Dan, took your child’s life?

00;10;10;01 – 00;13;36;15
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. Well, there’s a few reasons. The first reason is because 90%, at least in Wisconsin. And I would bet this is universally true. 90% of the people in our care incarcerated in Wisconsin, will be back out within four years, within the next four years. Which means that many of them are already back out and in our communities right now. And if we don’t help cause change and transformation, like if we don’t, if they don’t have resources, it’s they don’t have the inspiration and the motivation, the tools, the kit, the toolkit to, grow and learn and, you know, learn strategies to become better people. If we don’t give them all that, if we if our attitude, if we have a cultural attitude with our cursory people, that’s basically says, who cares about you? You know, lock them up, throw away the key, go ahead and rot in there for all I care. How are we ever going to expect any actual change when they do get out? So that’s not reason number one is to, inspiration and a toolkit for transformation and growth. The second reason, though, beyond just, you know, the reason for wanting our communities safer is for them. I mean, they’re human beings, too. And my faith tells me, remember those in prison? Like, that’s an instruction from the scriptures that I study. And, and the third reason for me, the personal reason for me is that if if the dad of a murdered girl can’t get motivated and stay motivated to work on change, and, you know, to be, an instrument or a driving force of change, how you know, who, who could, who can. And I believe all of us have, in fact, you said this in one of our earliest love is Greater than Hate videos. Kelly, you said something about having, you know, we have, a moral obligation and a community obligation to, to bring peace and healing and, and growth. I probably butchered what you said. I remember that you said something about that. But we all have an obligation, to participate in change or transformation. And, it’s not me, who? I was just gonna say that, if not me, who? Yeah. And you’re you’re being a role model for that. And I would imagine maybe on some days you don’t want to be a role model for that. But but we appreciate that. And the world needs those kinds of role models and and if, if not me, if not you, then who? And it’s a blessing to be one because it it pulls me out of my, selfish viewpoint of the bad thing that happened in my life and the bad things that happen in this world. And it pulls me into a whole different mindset of service and serving others. And, you know, if I want the world to change, but I’m not willing to I’m not willing to work at it. How can I expect other people to be? Gandhi told us that a long time ago. You got to be the change you want to see in the world. So I’m trying to do that, and everybody else should too!

00;13;36;17 – 00;13;58;04
Kelly Parbs
Thank you for doing that. And, you know, I also appreciate this idea that, you know, nine out of ten inmates will eventually return to our communities, which means the way that they heal or the way that they don’t heal affects all of us. And I think we should pay attention to that as well.

00;13;58;06 – 00;14;01;08
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

00;14;01;11 – 00;14;08;29
Kelly Parbs
So can you describe the Love Is Greater Than Hate prison program for us? Tell us some details.

00;14;09;02 – 00;18;58;08
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Sure. It’s my favorite thing to talk about. It started in 2017. We were about two years into the project, and, I was doing our, our the only program we had at the time. I just I’m a weird dad. I guess I had to I had a story in me and I had to tell it. It was Jessie’s story. I had to tell her story, but it was also mine. And, kind of a actual, actually a spiritual journey that I had after the horrible trauma. So I just had to tell all of it. And it started as a book in a PowerPoint called a message from Jessie. In 2017, we one of the things we were doing was we had a 5-K every year, and, a lady and her two boys came one year. They came from a different town. One of her sons had seen it online somehow. And so they came. And it was a she happened to be a really good runner. She won her age group. And so I’m at the medal ceremony after I’m putting in the gold medal for her age group around her neck and she says, hey, I just want you to know, I work for the Department of Corrections. And I said, oh, we should have coffee sometime, because about a week earlier, another person in a domestic violence service agency from another town had said, you should do this in prisons. This a message from Jessie PowerPoint. And, and so she opened the door at Oshkosh Correctional right about the same time as this Autumn, ran our 5-K. Well, it turns out that Autumn was not just the program supervisor. Every one of our 35 state prisons has a program supervisor, because our prisons have programs. They have, like drug and alcohol program and, sex offender program, and thinking for change and anger management. Them they have some good programs and they have a program supervisor who runs all the programs. What Autumn was like the program supervisor for the entire Department of Corrections. And she happened to come to our little 5-K in Hartford, Wisconsin. And so next thing I know, I’m doing a message from Jessie. In prisons. It became obvious fast that we needed more than a one and done. You know, we we could tell we were creating a huge temporary impact and receptivity to our message of forgiveness and peace and nonviolence and changing culture. But, you know, everything feeds into the past. If you don’t give people, any kind of a structure. Like if Jessie didn’t take music lessons, she probably never would have gotten anywhere. So, so then I created a follow up program called Forgiving the Unforgivable, where we used her story to take a deep dive into forgiveness itself. And then we created a four part faith based series called the F words because we wanted to grab the guy’s attention, and the F words are forgiveness, faith, fruitfulness, and fortitude. Love it! But but then we discovered Robert Enright’s work. Enright is a professor at UW Madison. He, when he was doing his doctorate over 40 years ago, he chose forgiveness as his subject matter because he was a devout Christian, and he still is. And as professor said, you can’t do that. I’m not going to sponsor that. He said, you’re going to commit career suicide. And he, he- and Enright refused to change. So the professor dropped him. Well, he somehow got another one or whatever. He did his dissertation of forgiveness and the rest is history. He’s now the founder of the International Forgiveness Institute. Time magazine in 2017 called him the founder of the Science of Forgiveness, and he created this incredible program. And and that’s what we’re doing in the prison system now, this ten week forgiveness class, that’s a deep dive into the guy’s anger, resentment and, a pathway to choose forgiveness and change their life. I did it in three state prisons and rehab center in 2024, and the results were remarkable. And now we’re building us for facilitators team. And we have four facilitators in six prisons right now. Actually, we’re now up to five, and we have a few more interested parties. So maybe within a year or two we’ll have eight facilitators in eight prisons. And, it’s remarkable work. Wow. Are these, volunteers who are doing the facilitation?

00;18;58;11 – 00;19;44;08
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yes. Yeah, they’re in it for well, it started that way. And me and the three others who I kind of hand-picked to have supported our nonprofit Love is Greater than eight. For a long time, I thought they’d make good facilitators, and they have. But now word starting to get out. And we’re having a few chaplains who are employed by the prisons who are interested. Also, one of them’s already said yes and got it approved. So, it would be cool if we could grow this organically within the system itself. So that, chaplains and program supervisors and other qualified people who are placed there can, deliver the material ongoing. Me?

00;19;44;10 – 00;19;52;23
Kelly Parbs
Yes. What’s what’s the goal in terms of how many prisons or states the program is in?

00;19;52;26 – 00;20;38;00
Dr. Buck Blodgett
You know, I’m just I, I my whole life I was really goal driven. And after we lost Jess, everything changed for me. And it my mantra used to be for 53 years, if it is to be, it’s up to me. And in the last 12, since we lost her, it’s more like, I’m yours. Use me. So you just instead of trying to make plans and goals, I just kind of let doors open and close and try to walk through the ones that are open and not pound my head against the ones the close and just, be fluid with, you know, I always have a consistent intention and mission and keep working at it, but be fluid with where the powers that be take me.

00;20;38;02 – 00;20;44;10
Kelly Parbs
That sounds less stressful to allow it to happen organically and however it’s supposed to.

00;20;44;12 – 00;20;51;26
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah, so that was a really long winded answer to we don’t really have a goal, but I’d love to see it spread to all states and all presents.

00;20;51;29 – 00;21;04;21
Kelly Parbs
Okay, sure. So along those lines, I guess, what what does success look like? Do you do captured data about outcomes?

00;21;04;24 – 00;23;42;05
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah, that’s one of the cool things about the program. We have a subjective self rating questionnaire that the people in our care fill out in lesson nine. And it’s their homework actually lesson number nine. And they bring back in week ten the last class where they get their certificate. And and we talk about it. And there’s eight questions. The first question is how angry are you. And they’re supposed to circle a number from 1 to 10. One is, you know, just like barely. We really should be 0 to 10. But, you know, barely angry at all. And ten is, you know, rage. And but there’s two answers for each question, so we want them to answer kind of a before and and after or, old me, new me. So, like, how angry are you? What was the true answer back before lesson one started? Before you were in the forgiveness class? Before. And then your second answer is now, like new me. Like, after what’s your anger now that you are in lesson ten of this class and there’s questions about anger and empathy and compassion and energy level your your time spent obsessing on this past trauma. And then the last two questions about forgiveness, you know, about willingness and ability. And, so we had 56 guys start the three prison groups in three different prisons last year. 53 of them completed the course, which is, I guess, kind of remarkable. As prison programs go, of those 53 that we collected, the rating scale, they filled out, they averaged 53 guys over eight questions. So that’s like 400 people questions averaged a four point change over all the questions and all the guys on that 1 to 10 scale. So like if a guy was an eight out of ten on the anger scale before the class started, at the end of the class, he was a four on average. He was a two on the compassion and empathy scales at the end of class. He was a six. And it’s his willingness and ability to forgive was a three out of ten when he started. It was a seven out of ten at the end of class. On average, over 53 guys.

00;23;42;07 – 00;23;46;01
Kelly Parbs
Those are some real very exciting results. Very exciting. Yes.

00;23;46;03 – 00;24;04;02
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. You know, subjective but but measurable. You know, good sample size measurable results and results were still in this year. But we’re compiling data and we haven’t evaluated the yet. But it’s with our new facilitator team. It’s looking like the results are good this year too.

00;24;04;04 – 00;24;10;11
Kelly Parbs
Wow. And I’m just curious do you share those results with Robert Enright?

00;24;10;13 – 00;25;48;25
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah, that was so fun last year. I’ve met with him I think four times now at Starbucks on Pier 37 and Madison, and he’s he’s the sweetest guy. He had never know he was who he is. For me, he’s a hero. He’s a giant in this field. But he’s just a really sweet, humble man, and he’s kind of brilliant. And when I walked in the Starbucks at the end of last year’s classes and took my manila folder envelope and splatted it down on the table in front of him, and he pulled it out his head. He’s a researcher. He’s he’s a professor, you know, he’s a he’s a spiritual man in the secular world. And he pulled those out and he started looking at them, and then I didn’t I didn’t see him again for like ten minutes. Like, he just got pulled into the data. And then he looks up at me, and he smiles. There’s kind of a look on his face. He goes, this is really good. This is publishable. And we don’t have any plans to publish or anything right now. We’re kind of flying under the radar. We’re we’re compiling a big body of data. We’ll have, our total data. We’ll have it broken down into different categories, like each facility. Because, you know, each facility has its own environment and culture and people. And each facilitator is, you know, who they are in each year. So, we’re in process in year two are happening. I was created a Lindsay is putting all that data together.

00;25;48;28 – 00;25;57;17
Kelly Parbs
That’s just remarkable. And I would imagine when Robert Enright saw those numbers, he was just absolutely thrilled.

00;25;57;20 – 00;26;28;11
Dr. Buck Blodgett
He was thrilled. You know, it’s, it’s his life’s work. Yeah. And, it’s incredible work. And it should be, in my opinion, it should be in schools and prisons everywhere. And that’s his vision, too. And he’s in five countries and schools and prisons in five countries. We got a little problem in the Wisconsin system that I want, share about, I guess, anymore right now. But, he’s thrilled that we’re in there doing this work. And me too. It’s the best thing I’ve ever done.

00;26;28;13 – 00;26;43;09
Kelly Parbs
Wow. So I’d love to hear some stories. I’ve been privileged to hear some stories from you. But why don’t you tell our listeners, the one that’s coming to mind maybe is… Jimmy.

00;26;43;12 – 00;29;11;18
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Jimmy’s my favorite story. Jimmy was actually at the Salvation Army rehab center last year, so it was the only class I’ve done that wasn’t in the prison system. And these guys, this was a special group. We started with 20 and we ended with seven. And the reason for that is all of these guys. Then we set it up in the prisons, and there we set it up so that I would go in and share a message from Jessie. I’d go in the next week and share forgiving the unforgivable. Then we’d announce the forgiveness class and invite anybody who had been to both to, apply to be in this forgiveness class. We described the forgiveness class because now we’d created a lot of motivation and inspiration and interest in in this forgiveness thing. And so I think we attracted people in all the prison programs. We attracted him- people in our care who were ready and hungry for this and wanting it. At the rehab center, I don’t know what happened, but someone made a last minute decision, and, the they had a bunch of. It’s a six month rehab program, and they got a bunch of new guys in two days before the class was to start. None of them had seen a message from Jessie or forgiving the unforgivable. They just got to rehab, and. And some of them didn’t want to be there. Like, some of them, I think are court ordered. Maybe. I don’t really know how they all get there, but they, you could tell many of them, many of them don’t make it to the program because it hasn’t been their choice to to be there. Anyway, so we started with 20 guys. Only seven guys finished. Jimmy finished. Jimmy didn’t talk for the first three weeks. He sat in the group circle of 20 guys. He didn’t even. He wouldn’t look at me. He wouldn’t look at any of us. He just sat there with his head down and killed 90 minutes. When we’d go around the circle and people would share, Jimmy would just say, pass. That’s all we heard from Jimmy until lesson number four, week number four. He spoke up, and what he said was he looked up and he looked around the group at all of us, and he looked at me and he said, I don’t believe in forgiveness. I’ll never forgive her. In fact, I want to kill her.

00;29;11;21 – 00;29;13;27
Kelly Parbs
Whoa, whoa.

00;29;13;29 – 00;30;52;07
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. And we’re. And this is the place in the first four lessons, we dive deep into our anger and resentment. Instead of burying it and suppressing it and repressing it and stuffing it and denying it, we actually they actually have to deal with it, which is really healthy, but really hard. Yeah. So Jimmy’s finally starting to deal with it against his will, and he says, I’ll never forgive her. I don’t believe in it! At lesson nine, we’re going around the group and we’re reading our self, reading our anger now. And perhaps for them to do their homework. The rating scale. We get to Jimmy and Jimmy says, at the beginning of the class, I was 100 on the scale of 1 to 10. And for a little context here, Jimmy was the only guy out of the 56 guys who started the prison class and the 20 guys who started the rehab class like Jimmy. He was the only guy that I remember, anyway, who picked the number that wasn’t 1 to 10. So you might think Jimmy’s is, you know, a drama king or whatnot, but if you were there and you looked around the group and you saw the way guys were looking at Jimmy, you wouldn’t think that you would know that Jimmy was 100 out of ten on the anger scale, like guys were afraid of. Jimmy. You didn’t talk to Jimmy. Sometimes, you know, you could just feel Jimmy and stay away. So anyway, Jimmy was 100 out of ten. That lesson before lesson one. Now he says it. And week number nine, I’m a four out of ten. And then he adds, and I can understand her point of view now and why she took the kids from me.

00;30;52;09 – 00;30;56;23
Kelly Parbs
Wow. And I mean, we had a transformation.

00;30;56;25 – 00;31;48;00
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Well, imagine here’s my final thought on Jimmy. Imagine two different possible outcomes when Jimmy gets out of rehab. You know, outcome number one, he’s he’s 100 out of ten on the anger and resentment scale. And when he’ll never truly ever. And he wants to kill her. Yeah. Because he thinks it’s her fault that he’s there and that she took the kids. And then he does this class, and he has tools and resources and homework and insights that he’s never had before, material to go through that he’s never had before. And now his story is I can understand her point of view. And I’m a four out of ten on the anger scale. And I see why she took the kids from me. Imagine those two different journeys, the before Jimmy and the after Jimmy get into rehab and the the two different possible outcomes.

00;31;48;03 – 00;31;53;07
Kelly Parbs
Life changing and and maybe life saving for all we know.

00;31;53;07 – 00;32;04;00
Dr. Buck Blodgett
I think so, yeah, I think so. And I don’t know if we have time for one more story, but if we do, we do. I’m pretty sure we saved a life. I can tell you about DeShawn.

00;32;04;02 – 00;32;05;27
Kelly Parbs
Sure.

00;32;06;00 – 00;35;06;10
Dr. Buck Blodgett
So he was at Kettle Moraine Correctional this year and he too was very quiet and just like real sweet and quiet, but like really like almost overly compliant. This is, a young, handsome African-American man, not too young, maybe, I don’t know, I shouldn’t describe him too much more, but, for confidentiality reasons. But anyway, he gradually, you know, he just kind of say the minimum. And he was, you know, I think a lot of his compliance as I got to know him better was really fear, you know, fear of where he was. And he was there with the anyway, he starts to speak up more and more. Gradually. We get to session number ten, the last session, and we’re asking guys to share their homework. You know, old me, new me before and after and where they’re at now and forgiveness process. We get to DeShawn. He says I was a ten out of ten before class started and I said, I won’t get the details exactly right on this conversation, but it was kind of like this. I said, how long were you at ten out of ten? He says, nine years. Nine years. He said, yeah, that’s how long I been here. That’s when it happened. And, basically somebody killed his brother and that somebody didn’t go to prison. But DeShawn did. And, I said, you mean for nine years now, when your anger’s at its worst, it’s a ten out of ten. And DeShawn says, no, what I mean is my anger’s been a ten out of ten for nine years. Like, it’s always, a ten out of ten. It’s never a five out of ten or a two out of ten. It’s a ten. It’s been a ten out of ten, like every day for nine years, he says. I was going to do something when I get out. We all kind of took pause and I said, when do you get out? And he said, A month after this class ends. Oh. And, so then I shifted gears. I said, oh, where are you at right now? What’s your anger now? He said, I’m coming into class today. I was a two out of ten. I said, are you telling us that your anger was never off of a ten out of ten for nine years? And then you started this class three months ago, and now near the end of the class, it’s a two out of ten. And he said, yeah. And I said, what about after that five minute meditation? We just did before we started to share? And he paused and he looked and he said, I was a zero. And I said, you saying that kind of for the first time in nine years, you actually didn’t have anger, right? And just in the moments after that five minute meditation, he said, yeah. I said, I said, is there any reason you can’t do that meditation outside of class?

00;35;06;17 – 00;35;08;04
Kelly Parbs
Exactly.

00;35;08;06 – 00;36;50;12
Dr. Buck Blodgett
And he said, no, I can do that. And I looked at all the guys and I said, is there any reason any of us can’t do that meditation on our own? Like, is it possible that we could take five minutes to just sit quietly with ourselves and ask ourselves a few simple questions about, where’s my anger at right now? And and you know, where is it coming from? And, imagine letting it go and releasing it like that. So we use it as a teaching moment. So, long story short, the punch line is, DeShawn says, listen to mama now and, and I said, what do you mean? He said, well, I talk to mama every week on the phone for nine years. The mom who, you know, DeShawn, is her son. And to Sean’s brother was her other son, and he was murdered by this other guy who’s not in prison. So DeShawn is bitter and angry at not only that guy, but also at the system. Right. So, I said, what do you mean? You’re listening to mom and I, and he’s he said, well, you know, I’ve been telling her for nine years, when I get out, I’m going to do something. And, she’d been telling me for nine years, don’t do it. You know, I don’t want you to turn around and go right back in there. And I’ve already, you know, I’ve lost two to my babies. Now, when you get out, I don’t want you to go back in. So DeShawn tells us he’s listening to his mom. And now that was his way of saying his plans have changed. He’s been planning to kill his brother’s killer for nine years, literally planning how he was going to do it and when and where and like fantasizing about it for nine years. And now he’s not anymore.

00;36;50;15 – 00;37;52;12
Kelly Parbs
So talk about outcomes. Saved lives for sure. And, you know, it’s it’s interesting. I had never heard the story of DeShawn before. And it’s interesting that you brought up that he’s listening to mama because what I was thinking, you know, you know that I in my job work with a lot of really hard situations, often involving death and my heart always thinks about the mamas, right? I can relate to the role of of being a mom. And earlier when you were talking, I was thinking, this work is answering the prayers, or at least the wishes of a lot of mamas who have their sons in prison. You know, not only are you helping them, you know the people in your care, the folks are. But the ripple effect of of answering the prayers or the wishes of the moms and the families of those people.

00;37;52;14 – 00;38;30;19
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. And not only Kelly, the the the moms of the people in our care, what the spouses of them who are moms. You’d be amazed that almost every presentation I remember to ask, how many of you have kids and almost all their hands go up. And then I say, how many of you are married and almost no hands go up? And then we just look and we all smile at each other. And I say, you know, wow. Broken relationships, And they’re all like. And then I ask them, do you miss your kids? And you should see their faces. Their heads just go down and and I say, do you love them? And, and that just opens a door to talk about this.

00;38;30;21 – 00;38;52;22
Kelly Parbs
Stay tuned for part two of this conversation, where we will hear stories of transformation and practical lessons from the Love is Greater Than Hate prison program. For more episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit www.Empathia.com. Follow us @Empathia, and subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. I’m Kelly Parbs- thanks for listening!