Episode 71: Second Chances in Prison Reform with Dr. Buck Blodgett, Part 2

00;00;09;03 – 00;00;31;00
Kelly Parbs
Welcome back to OnTopic with Empathia – I’m your host, Kelly Parbs. In part one, we explored Buck’s journey of forgiveness and how it led to the creation of the LOVE>hate prison program. Today, we will begin to see how the program impacts inmates and their families and the lessons we all can take from Buck’s work.

00;00;31;03 – 00;02;09;01
Dr. Buck Blodgett
We have one guy, Jacob. Super short final story of Jacob. This year, at one of our state facilities came up after one of our classes and let me know. And he’s just beaming, and he’s just like, he looked like a pastor to me. Like. Like he was. Couldn’t wait to tell people all about God or something. And what he wanted to tell me was that he, he’s talking with his his ex again, who is now calling him weekly when she didn’t for a couple of years, and who at Jacob’s pretty young, too. He’s. I’m going to say, I guess he’s late 20s or 30. He’s got a few little kids. And not only are they talking again. He told her about this class, and he, ordered the book for her that we use as a text, ‘Forgiveness is a Choice’ by Enright. And, she’s. And they’re, like, studying it together. Like, they can’t sit together, you know, virtually or in person and study. But they’ll do chapter one this week. You know, her and her space and him and his space. And then when they talk weekly, they’ll talk about it. And they’re kind of going through the book and the homework together. And he said, it’s brought them back together. And, and imagine, you know, for me, here’s the biggest reason to forgive because it’s good for your kids. You know, don’t you want your you want your kids to grow up carrying around anger, bitterness and resentment because they see that’s how we do. Or do you want them to grow up being forgiving people because you’ve taught them that?

00;02;09;03 – 00;02;42;09
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. That whole ripple effect! The impact isn’t just on individual inmates. Programs like the LOVE>hate project have the potential to influence families, neighborhoods, communities. When these men leave prison with less anger, more forgiveness, and a renewed sense of purpose in this world. I would imagine that this program gives them something to live for when they’re on the outside to mend relationships.

00;02;42;11 – 00;03;38;05
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. You just nailed it. That’s. It’s really about replacing. It’s about releasing anger and bitterness, resentment, hostility, upset towards other humans that has been owning you and driving you for years or decades or a lifetime. And but it’s got to get replaced with something, right? The vacuum, it has to get filled with something. And what is that something? It’s purpose. You know, we tell the guys we need you, man. You’re going back out and in our communities, we need you to be part of the solution and not a problem. And nobody’s ever talked to some of them. They’ve never had someone, you know, call them on their B.S. Tell them they love them and show them the way. They. You know, I was blessed to have people in my life who did that. Otherwise, I, you know, I would have been a even bigger jerk than I am. And, y’know, that’s all we need! You know, we we all need a coach.

00;03;38;07 – 00;03;45;18
Kelly Parbs
Oh, right. And then they, in turn, are coaching those children in their lives and showing them that there’s a different way.

00;03;45;20 – 00;03;48;08
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah, exactly.

00;03;48;10 – 00;04;12;02
Kelly Parbs
Buck, you have told me personally that one of the things that you hear most after your presentations is, you know, wow, I really have a lot of respect for that. But I just don’t think I could ever do that. You know, forgive so radically the way you do. Tell us how you feel about that response.

00;04;12;04 – 00;07;02;17
Dr. Buck Blodgett
I could never do that. It’s amazing, but I could never do that. That drives me crazy. Yeah, it makes me cross, Kelly, it bugs me! It ticks me off. I call B.S. on that, but I totally understand it, because, I would have said the same thing if you would have told me 13 years ago what was going to happen next year to Jessie. And who was going to do it? This friend who was welcome in her home. You know, I, I, we said the same thing. Lock him up, throw away the key. You know, give me five minutes with a baseball bat and in the bushes in the dark with this guy. But, you know, that was old me, and and and death has a way of changing us, and, And, I’m not to preach, but eternity has a way of changing us too. When, when, suddenly something I always thought was wishful thinking, I believe Jess made clear to me is actually reality. That changed everything for me. So, anyways, anyone and everyone can forgive. That’s what we’re here for. We’re built for that. We’re designed for it. We’re supposed to do it. It’s not a should. I don’t mean supposed to. Like. Like you should forgive. Like, who am I to tell people I don’t even know what they’ve been through or what their trauma is? It’s more of an invitation than a should. It’s more of, you know, come to this incredible party. You have no idea how good it is. And, but anyone can do it. Everyone can do it. A lot of people get stuck in some really common places. Like they get stuck with. Well, yeah, if I forgive him. Am I letting him off the hook? Like, I can’t let that off the. I can’t let that slide. You know, and I totally get that. And forgiveness and accountability are two completely different phenomena. Like accountability. Yes, absolutely. Punishment when appropriate, as appropriate. Yes, absolutely. I don’t just for the record. So people know where I stand. And as a teaching point, I don’t believe Dan should ever get out. Not because I hate him. Because I want him to suffer. Because I want to stick it to. Because I want to lock him up and throw away the key and let him rot in there. I don’t actually feel that way. In fact, I would love to be a part of his life transformation, but he’s got to choose that. But, you know, now, I was lost where I was. Anybody can forgive.

00;07;02;19 – 00;07;27;10
Kelly Parbs
Actually, I was I was going to interrupt there for a moment anyway, when you brought up Dan and, you know, really believing that he needs to be held accountable and stay in prison for what he did to Jessie. It it did make me think. Would you ever go into the prison where he is? Would that be an option for you, just like emotionally? Is that something you feel like you could do or would do?

00;07;27;13 – 00;09;15;05
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Oh, absolutely. I would only do that to visit him if he was eligible for that, which is not now. He’s not eligible for, restorative justice, kind of a process with the victim family because, to be eligible, you have to, take accountability and responsibility and ownership for what you did. You have to tell the truth about it, and you have to admit it. And you have to show some measure of remorse in the in the eyes of a panel who are evaluating you. And he he’s never done that yet. So but my door is always open. I’d be happy to visit him. You know, don’t B.S. me, you know. Don’t. If it’s for some kind of prison points or advantages. No, I’m not going to waste my time. But if he is genuinely, in the process, in undergoing some kind of change, if there’s self-reflection, if there’s honesty, if there’s actual remorse, which we haven’t seen any sign of yet, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen tomorrow or next year or in decades, then I’d be there. Absolutely. What I won’t do is go in and do programs. That’s the one prison I can’t go to because, you know, that’s potentially dangerous for him. And, you know, maybe for others because you. I never want to go and be the cause of violence in a prison or of upset or anything, and and some of the people in our care, you know, they kind of have their own code and they don’t like guys who hurt, you know, girls who are half their size. So I wouldn’t do that. But that doesn’t mean I can’t love and forgive them and wouldn’t be there if he meant it.

00;09;15;07 – 00;09;44;21
Kelly Parbs
Interesting. I did not know that. I never thought of it from that perspective that you couldn’t go into the prison he’s in. Because that could be dangerous for him. Thank you for knowing that. And and thinking about that. So, Buck, what we were talking about or what I was getting to is how to forgive. You know, what are some practical how to’s for our listeners? How do you start that process?

00;09;44;24 – 00;13;15;13
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. Great question. So first of all, Doctor Enright has this book, ‘Forgiveness is a Choice.’ I sound like I, I should be his book promoter. Believe it so much. It’s so good. And anybody can get it on Amazon. It’s like 20 bucks or 18 bucks. I mean, you want to radically change your life for 18 bucks and dive deep into the 22 step forgiveness process, which is a science. And it’s 40 years of research based, evidence based, outcomes based. A lot of people won’t do that. So let me boil it down to I’ve reduced Enright’s 22 step process to two basic steps. They’re really simple. They’re not easy. It might be the hardest thing in the world for most humans, but. But it’s simple. Two steps. Forgiveness is a choice, and it’s a practice. So number one, it’s a choice. It’s not a should. But again, who am I to tell you? You should forgive that forgiveness is highly personal. And I don’t know your life. And I don’t know your trauma. I don’t know what you’re gone through or what you’ve been through. And even if I did, it’s not my place to tell anybody or anybody’s place to tell anyone else that they should forgive. It’s just a choice. But if you get any glimpse into a greater value of forgiveness than you had before, it might be a choice you want to make. And we’ll talk more about that in a minute, too. Yeah. And the Mayo Clinic says, their definition is the Mayo Clinic says people. Forgiveness means a lot of different things to different people. But in general, it, it basically it boils down to, an intentional choice to let go of anger and resentment. So the the Mayo Clinic is calling forgiveness a choice. That’s step one. You got to choose, by the way. A little aside here, it might be a choice you have to make over and over and over and over every day. You know I yeah I it’s not just a simple. I forgive you. Boom. Done forever. You know, that’s not going to cut it for me, forgetting Dan. The big stuff, the big life traumas. It’s going to be a daily practice for a long time. For most people, maybe not necessarily for me, was actually kind of radically different. It was fast and miraculous almost. But for most people it’s forgiveness is a process that’s going to take time. The little things, you know, someone cuts in front of me, someone tailgates me on the freeway. You know, I can forgive that and never think about it again. The big things, like what happened to Jessie. I’m going to have to forgive that daily. Intentionally. Volitionally with purpose. I’m going to have to practice that as a daily practice for a long time before it transforms fully and disappears, and I’m healed. So forgiveness is a choice. Number one. Step one. Just choose it. And by the way, here’s another pitfall a lot of people get stuck thinking, I can’t do it because I don’t. I’m not feeling it. I don’t feel forgiving. Forgiveness is not a feeling. It’s a commitment. You know, for anybody who’s been married for 40 years, like me and Joy, we just had our 40th-

00;13;15;16 – 00;13;18;11
Kelly Parbs
Happy anniversary! Congratulations!

00;13;18;13 – 00;16;54;15
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Thank you. Anybody in a committed relationship that long knows there’s times when you don’t feel it. But love. You know, the romance phase is this intense first phase of love where we intensely feel it and we idealize the other person and they can do no wrong. We want to spend every second with them, but then we move in together and we start to find out who the other person actually is, not who we want them to be. And, then comes phase two of marriage, the breakdown phase. And if we can hang in there long enough, we get to phase three, which I believe is the reason God made marriage. And that is the unconditional love phase where we get to practice for the rest of our lives, accepting someone exactly how they are. So like, not me. You know, it took me 20 years to figure out it wasn’t my job to change Joy into who I thought she should be. It’s my job to love her exactly the way she is. And and forgiveness is like that. Two. So, where are we? Number one. It’s a choice. You don’t have to feel it. It’s a commitment. I can not feel forgiving, but be committed to forgiveness, to being a forgiving person, to forgiving Dan, even if I’m mad at him. It’s a choice I might have to make over and over. You know, I, I might have fully forgiven him in this moment and then wake up in a dream tomorrow morning about what he might have been doing to Jessie. You know, I got to start all over donor and forgive it again, right? So it’s a choice. It might be a choice you need to repeat over and over until you get it. Till you don’t need to anymore. Number two, it’s a practice. It’s a daily practice. It’s just practice. When grandpa gave Jessie her starter keyboard in first grade, she just loved it. So she played every single day. She practiced every day. And she took a lesson every week. And ten years later, she could hear any song and just play it. Just sit down and play it by ear. And, in sixth grade, when she brought a violin home, she joined the orchestra in middle school, and the dog ran to the far side of the house and hid under the bed. But ten years later, she could listen to any song and pick up the violin and just play it by ear. Why? Daily practice. Forgiveness is like that. You know, mastery needs a daily practice over time. Same with the sport. Anyone who anyone who’s practiced free throws for a long time has gotten better. Anyone who goes to the gym for a long time gets stronger. We tell the guys in class, you know, if you do this forgiveness, this is forgiveness gym. And you might you might go to this forgiveness gym, this ten week class every day for ten weeks and do all the homework. But if at the end of the class use you stop doing it, you know you’re going to just nothing’s going to really change long term. If you workout or exercise is a daily lifestyle forever, you’ll get fitter and fitter and fitter and fitter. And forgiveness is just like that. It’s like your muscles. It’s the forgiveness muscle needs training. Daily practice. So one. Forgiveness is a choice. They can’t start until you make that choice. And two, forgiveness is a practice. You just have to work at it a little bit every day as a lifestyle. Forever.

00;16;54;17 – 00;17;52;07
Kelly Parbs
And like you said, over time it might become a little bit more natural. I’m thinking about I work with leaders a lot and I do some training on like emotional intelligence and for some people that really doesn’t come naturally. And so I have them write a script of things, you know, emotionally intelligent people say like, tell me more or I appreciate you or what do you think? Are you okay? Those kinds of things. And I have them write it down and and stick it to the wall in their office so that every day they try to say some of those statements until eventually it becomes more natural. And they’re very uncomfortable with it in the beginning. But usually with good outcomes. And that’s reminding me of what you’re saying about practicing forgiveness. It has to be very intentional. It might not feel natural at first, but over time, over time, it will hopefully become more natural.

00;17;52;10 – 00;19;16;01
Dr. Buck Blodgett
We’ll get better at anything we practice. We get better at you reminding me of me. I used to be a terrible listener, and somebody told me that in the course I did in the 1980s. And I wanted to be a good one, and and I could see in them they were amazing at listening and really hearing people. And I wanted that in a to practice. And, they taught me a couple things to, to say and do, like you just went through that helped me become a better listener. Forgiveness is exactly like that. We can all learn it. We’re all built for it. We’re all, I believe, work. This is just my belief. I believe it’s what we’re here for. I believe we’re called to master this thing. Forgiveness. I think it’s the number one thing. We have these lives for is to experience traumas and and use them to grow in different areas and different ways. Resilience and strength. Compassion for others. Like, how can I be? How can I have compassion for your trauma? For somebody who’s lost a child? If I haven’t, right? So there’s the tragedy and it’s horrible. But the blessing of it is, is that I’m a different person now who can be a better person for other people who are going through it, too. And forgiveness is just like that. It just takes time and growth and learning and practice well.

00;19;16;01 – 00;19;42;21
Kelly Parbs
And and think about the other side of that too. Imagine a time I certainly can imagine plenty of times when I’ve been forgiven. Imagine a time when you’ve been forgiven and how great that feels, and the freedom that gives you. And you know that’s a gift that we can give to other people and and a gift that we hope to be given ourselves as well.

00;19;42;23 – 00;19;50;21
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. One of the great point I’m not even going to say anything because you just said it all. Just imagine being forgiven. Yeah.

00;19;50;24 – 00;19;51;07
Kelly Parbs
You know.

00;19;51;11 – 00;19;53;00
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Beautiful.

00;19;53;03 – 00;20;24;29
Kelly Parbs
So Buck, you’ve shown us that forgiveness is not just a concept. It’s something that you have to live and practice and teach. It’s something that is presented to us as a choice every single day, in little circumstances and in very, very big, traumatic, serious circumstances. What is one actionable takeaway for our listeners who are ready to start practicing forgiveness today?

00;20;25;02 – 00;20;27;00
Kelly Parbs

00;20;27;02 – 00;23;41;03
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Well, if I could make a wish, it might be this. I’d have to. I just thought about that. And I’d have to actually think on what wish I would make. But it might be this one that for some, by some miracle, people would actually do this. They would start every day with 60 seconds. And I know how busy we are. I know my morning routine, how busy we are, but I actually have a 20 to 40 minute morning routine that I’ve been going through for 12 years now. Wow. Just because it has changed everything for me, it’s it’s my gym. It’s my practice. But it’s just 60s, to to intentionally practice forgiveness. And it can be real simple. And you just set the intention for the day. You know, it’s just a way to, kind of tell yourself, remind yourself of your commitment, to to forgive. So, here’s an example. You find a thought that empowers you, that empowers your forgiveness process. Maybe it’s something like everyone needs forgiveness, or maybe it’s something like, my forgiveness is pure, total and without conditions. Or maybe it’s as simple as something like I forgive you or I forgive me, and you just take 60s and sit in a quiet space and I know how busy we are, but if you’re too busy for 60s then you’re too busy and you need the 60s more than anybody else. 60s to just sit there and kind of chew on that. I forgive me or I forgive you or whatever it is. And contemplate and let it sink in and just try to maintain that thought and only that thought for 60s or if you’re a little more ambitious, or if you have 5 minutes or 20 minutes, maybe you want to have that thought, I forgive you, or everyone needs forgiveness. And if you meditate on that for 20 minutes, all kinds of things are going to come up, right? You know, like the people who need forgiveness and in the situations that need forgiveness and, and and the anger you have and the resentment you have about that, there’s and and the chance to release that and to, to not to bury it, stuff it and move on and move forward and think about other things and positive thinking. But to literally, intentionally let, let it go, like, as if you’re as if you got your hands full of butterflies and you’re throwing them up into the air and letting them fly away. You know, sweet image. Yeah. So people can do with it what they want. But I think all of us can find 60s to set our intention for today. That has something to do with, you know, and and an attention to presence, forgiveness in in my self and my community and my world.

00;23;41;06 – 00;24;17;09
Kelly Parbs
Absolutely. And not only forgiveness for things that have happened, but maybe forgiveness for what will be, because every day will have stress in it, every, every day, you know, brings its challenges. And and maybe I just want to set my heart to be soft. And when I’m at the grocery store and, you know, someone cuts in front of me in line, maybe set my heart to be forgiving to that person. Because like you said earlier, we don’t know the journey that people have walked, and forgiveness might be the greatest gift that we can give to them.

00;24;17;12 – 00;26;03;15
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Man, that’s so good. And the longer we do that, for the more we practice that, the easier it gets and the faster we get at it. The more it becomes natural. Like you were saying, the more it becomes our go to response eventually. You know, mastery is when that becomes your reflex. Like something happens in your reflexes, forgiveness. And you don’t have to think too much about it. It’s just who you are now because you practice it for so long. And I don’t know if we have time for this. So, so cut it. If we don’t but, can I share one of my all time favorite metaphors? Yes! There’s a show on cable TV called forged and in Forged in Fire, I believe in. And you got these guys and they’re they’re usually pretty rough. And, looks like they haven’t shaved for a year and probably didn’t shower for a few days, and then they give them a big chunk of metal. And, these guys stick this chunk of rough metal in the forge, and they superheat it up to whatever. I don’t know what it is 400 some degrees or I don’t know what it is. And they pull it out and it’s like piping red hot and and then they, they pound on it and the hammer on it and they kind of mold it and form it and shape it into something more beautiful and more useful. And you said earlier, Kelly, let your heart be softened by this morning routine, you know, that’s why the metal goes in the forge. That’s why the fires of life to soften us. So don’t let your traumas harden you. Let your traumas soften you.

00;26;03;18 – 00;26;05;29
Kelly Parbs
Now, I love that too!

00;26;06;01 – 00;26;20;02
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Yeah. And then we too, when one softened, can be pounded and and, you know, hammered on by life and molded and shaped into something more useful and beautiful.

00;26;20;04 – 00;26;28;25
Kelly Parbs
I think that’s a perfect place to end this, Buck. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the work that you’re doing in prisons.

00;26;28;27 – 00;26;43;25
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Thanks for having me, letting me talk about this and helping me being my ally and all of our listeners, hopefully allies in presencing forgiveness and healing and peace very quickly.

00;26;43;25 – 00;26;51;14
Kelly Parbs
Can you let people know where to find out more about your work? With the LOVE>hate program?

00;26;51;16 – 00;27;46;16
Dr. Buck Blodgett
Sure. You can find us online at L-I-G-T-H, that’s short for LOVE>hate. www.ligth.org. And be careful your device might autocorrect because that’s a lot like light. But it’s not light. www.ligth.org. We also are on Facebook the LOVE>hate project. Love is all capitals. Then there’s a greater than symbol and hate is all smalls, as it should be. The LOVE>hate project on Facebook and also on Instagram. People can subscribe to our newsletter through our website and we’re also on nine TV shows now, including Dateline and, City Confidential. Another big one that’s about to come out, which I can’t say until it does. So you can find this on TV and a lot of places, but that’s our website and our social media.

00;27;46;18 – 00;28;21;19
Kelly Parbs
Forgiveness isn’t just a reaction, it’s a resource. It can heal, it can transform, and it can create hope where hope seems impossible. As Buck reminded us, even in the most challenging circumstances, we can choose love over hate. And those choices matter for every one of us. To hear more episodes of OnTopic with Empathia, visit www.Empathia.com. Follow us @Empathia, and subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. I’m Kelly Parbs – thank you for joining us today!